from http://blogs.salon.com/0002153/
When to Split
The hardest part of this blog is here, the question about when a man can feel he has "done enough" and starts thinking about divorce.
"Jamesash" wrote in the comments on the "calculator" post:
Something different I have been wondering about - the title of this sub-site/blog (which is being really helpful and insightful for me) is "Why your wife won't have sex with you". The subtext here is that this is the man's problem. To paraphrase JG - "if you want to change the sexual dynamic in your relationship, it is up to you to make the changes that will make your wife feel more amorous" (in fact, JG never used these words, but I beleive the intent expressed is close to what she has written).
As the blog is addressed to men, that's pretty much the only attitude I can take. Because, as I have said over and over again, I'm trying to give guys a sense that there is something they can do. If I tell a guy he has to wait on his wife's decision to straighten up and fly right, that their sexual impasse is entirely her problem, I'm essentially telling him he's POWERLESS. That's emasculating, and it's the absolute worst thing a man who wants to recover sexual confidence and love can hear.
However, sometimes things are hopeless. Jamesash continues:
So my question is this - after 10 sexless years, I have reached the point where most of the feeling I have left for my wife is anger and resentment. No doubt I could be more sensitive and thoughtful in many ways but after 10+ years of trying I am not willing to try any more. So what happens next? Separation seems likely, although strangely (to me) I do not think my wife wants this.
I'm sure she doesn't. There are a lot of merely practical reasons why a breakup now is not in her -- or your -- best interests. Setting up two separate households out of assets and income that are presently sustaining only one is an extremely expensive business, one which will essentially demolish you both financially, even leaving aside the cost of the divorce itself.
And although children can adjust to any divorce which is absolutely necessary (and they will certainly be better off if there is any question of physical danger), divorce is a major challenge to their sense of security, especially at younger ages. It could set them back in their emotional development. Some children are more sensitive than others to the loss of their father's presence on a daily basis. I'd like to say girls are more at risk (because I've come to believe that losing my father to divorce had something to do with my sexual insecurities later in life), but it really depends on the individual child. Older children may be less fundamentally vulnerable, but the teen years are the ones in which a child often needs a father desperately.
But in any case divorce will loosen/weaken children's relationships with their non-custodial parent, and even in these days of the Men's Rights Movement, that still tends to be the father. And children's relationships with the custodial parent change, too, when there are fewer options for a kid to resort to for interaction, advice or nurturance. Trying to be both parents to a kid by yourself is a rough emotional (and practical!) business, and excesses and lapses of varying intensity are inevitable. Major alterations to both parents' relationships with their kids are part of the emotional sacrifices you make in divorce, and the sacrifice of your previous relationship with your kids often looms larger for a separated parent over time. Be sure you take that into account.
But, in the end, pure practicality and "considering the children" are not the only bases on which to make the divorce decision. Believe me, Jamesash, your wife knows within the height of a raised eyebrow what your feelings are toward her. She knows, although perhaps only half-consciously sometimes, that they are uniformly negative. So it's unlikely that she can even think about opening herself to you and giving you pleasure now, because -- let's be absolutely frank -- she realizes that you hate her.
For her, sex with you these days would not only be a physical chore, but an admission that your ugly feelings toward her were somehow acceptable or right. Making love would require her to surrender herself to your opinion, to accept your dismal view of her as a human being. As long as she can continue to believe that it's okay to live her life feeling Unloved if she doesn't actually have to have sex with a person who despises her, she'll refuse.
Jamesash, your situation is equally sad. You are living with a daily sense of failure, anger and helplessness. You're feeling Unloved, too. So there is the possibility that both of you would be happier enough apart that the fury, emotional disruption and horrendous expense of divorce could be worth it. Because sometimes it is simply impossible to change a negative emotional spiral like the one you're in once it gets underway. You continue:
My attitude has become "if she wants to keep this marriage together, she better start thinking about how to make me happy". This would be a pretty alien concept for her - she tends to think she is always in the right and also has a 'shoot first ask questions later' approach to our relationship when it comes to discusions, sometimes apologizing days later for angry statements after the damage is done.
There are few people in the world who don't more-or-less automatically assume that what they want and what they think is right and good, and that those who defy or disagree with them are wrong and bad.
People without this basic confidence in their own judgment and needs are ordinarily very sick indeed. And as I've pointed out before, a pattern of blow-up/hurtfulness followed by a days-later apology is not unusual even in the best marriages.
But, Jamesash, what you perceive as your wife's radical personal protectiveness ("I'm always right" and that classic "the best defense is a good offense" thing) is clear evidence that she sees you as The Enemy.
I'm guessing this whole mess started fairly early in your marriage, when she somehow came to believe that there was no other way to deal with you than by defending herself, maintaining her self-esteem, keeping you at arm's length so you couldn't hurt her. True intimacy and trust between you became too dangerous somehow. So the negative spiral began, her defense engendering defense and anger in you, and thus (as she saw it) more need for defense on her part, and so on. The walls went up, the sniping and undermining began, and eventually the seige turned into the stalemate of the status quo.
Under those circumstances, Jamesash, there is no way in hell that she is ever going to start thinking about how to make you happy. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
But this is the most crucial thing you said:
No doubt I could be more sensitive and thoughtful in many ways but after 10+ years of trying I am not willing to try any more.
If YOU, Jamesash, -- the one who is apparently least happy with the status quo, the one who is probably the most agitated, the one with the largest problem -- if YOU are really, truly, absolutely not willing to try any more, for any reason, your marriage really is over. Again, this is no moral or emotional judgment on either of you, it is just a fact. Hang it up.
Next time I manage to get onto the blog I'll talk about ...dum de dum dum... counseling, of both the individual and couples kind. If you're new here, you may be surprised at what I have to say.
http://blogs.salon.com/0002153/
...always more about SirwithLove by going to: http://groups.msn.com/BDSMLairofDarkness/_whatsnew.msnw?
When to Split
The hardest part of this blog is here, the question about when a man can feel he has "done enough" and starts thinking about divorce.
"Jamesash" wrote in the comments on the "calculator" post:
Something different I have been wondering about - the title of this sub-site/blog (which is being really helpful and insightful for me) is "Why your wife won't have sex with you". The subtext here is that this is the man's problem. To paraphrase JG - "if you want to change the sexual dynamic in your relationship, it is up to you to make the changes that will make your wife feel more amorous" (in fact, JG never used these words, but I beleive the intent expressed is close to what she has written).
As the blog is addressed to men, that's pretty much the only attitude I can take. Because, as I have said over and over again, I'm trying to give guys a sense that there is something they can do. If I tell a guy he has to wait on his wife's decision to straighten up and fly right, that their sexual impasse is entirely her problem, I'm essentially telling him he's POWERLESS. That's emasculating, and it's the absolute worst thing a man who wants to recover sexual confidence and love can hear.
However, sometimes things are hopeless. Jamesash continues:
So my question is this - after 10 sexless years, I have reached the point where most of the feeling I have left for my wife is anger and resentment. No doubt I could be more sensitive and thoughtful in many ways but after 10+ years of trying I am not willing to try any more. So what happens next? Separation seems likely, although strangely (to me) I do not think my wife wants this.
I'm sure she doesn't. There are a lot of merely practical reasons why a breakup now is not in her -- or your -- best interests. Setting up two separate households out of assets and income that are presently sustaining only one is an extremely expensive business, one which will essentially demolish you both financially, even leaving aside the cost of the divorce itself.
And although children can adjust to any divorce which is absolutely necessary (and they will certainly be better off if there is any question of physical danger), divorce is a major challenge to their sense of security, especially at younger ages. It could set them back in their emotional development. Some children are more sensitive than others to the loss of their father's presence on a daily basis. I'd like to say girls are more at risk (because I've come to believe that losing my father to divorce had something to do with my sexual insecurities later in life), but it really depends on the individual child. Older children may be less fundamentally vulnerable, but the teen years are the ones in which a child often needs a father desperately.
But in any case divorce will loosen/weaken children's relationships with their non-custodial parent, and even in these days of the Men's Rights Movement, that still tends to be the father. And children's relationships with the custodial parent change, too, when there are fewer options for a kid to resort to for interaction, advice or nurturance. Trying to be both parents to a kid by yourself is a rough emotional (and practical!) business, and excesses and lapses of varying intensity are inevitable. Major alterations to both parents' relationships with their kids are part of the emotional sacrifices you make in divorce, and the sacrifice of your previous relationship with your kids often looms larger for a separated parent over time. Be sure you take that into account.
But, in the end, pure practicality and "considering the children" are not the only bases on which to make the divorce decision. Believe me, Jamesash, your wife knows within the height of a raised eyebrow what your feelings are toward her. She knows, although perhaps only half-consciously sometimes, that they are uniformly negative. So it's unlikely that she can even think about opening herself to you and giving you pleasure now, because -- let's be absolutely frank -- she realizes that you hate her.
For her, sex with you these days would not only be a physical chore, but an admission that your ugly feelings toward her were somehow acceptable or right. Making love would require her to surrender herself to your opinion, to accept your dismal view of her as a human being. As long as she can continue to believe that it's okay to live her life feeling Unloved if she doesn't actually have to have sex with a person who despises her, she'll refuse.
Jamesash, your situation is equally sad. You are living with a daily sense of failure, anger and helplessness. You're feeling Unloved, too. So there is the possibility that both of you would be happier enough apart that the fury, emotional disruption and horrendous expense of divorce could be worth it. Because sometimes it is simply impossible to change a negative emotional spiral like the one you're in once it gets underway. You continue:
My attitude has become "if she wants to keep this marriage together, she better start thinking about how to make me happy". This would be a pretty alien concept for her - she tends to think she is always in the right and also has a 'shoot first ask questions later' approach to our relationship when it comes to discusions, sometimes apologizing days later for angry statements after the damage is done.
There are few people in the world who don't more-or-less automatically assume that what they want and what they think is right and good, and that those who defy or disagree with them are wrong and bad.
People without this basic confidence in their own judgment and needs are ordinarily very sick indeed. And as I've pointed out before, a pattern of blow-up/hurtfulness followed by a days-later apology is not unusual even in the best marriages.
But, Jamesash, what you perceive as your wife's radical personal protectiveness ("I'm always right" and that classic "the best defense is a good offense" thing) is clear evidence that she sees you as The Enemy.
I'm guessing this whole mess started fairly early in your marriage, when she somehow came to believe that there was no other way to deal with you than by defending herself, maintaining her self-esteem, keeping you at arm's length so you couldn't hurt her. True intimacy and trust between you became too dangerous somehow. So the negative spiral began, her defense engendering defense and anger in you, and thus (as she saw it) more need for defense on her part, and so on. The walls went up, the sniping and undermining began, and eventually the seige turned into the stalemate of the status quo.
Under those circumstances, Jamesash, there is no way in hell that she is ever going to start thinking about how to make you happy. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
But this is the most crucial thing you said:
No doubt I could be more sensitive and thoughtful in many ways but after 10+ years of trying I am not willing to try any more.
If YOU, Jamesash, -- the one who is apparently least happy with the status quo, the one who is probably the most agitated, the one with the largest problem -- if YOU are really, truly, absolutely not willing to try any more, for any reason, your marriage really is over. Again, this is no moral or emotional judgment on either of you, it is just a fact. Hang it up.
Next time I manage to get onto the blog I'll talk about ...dum de dum dum... counseling, of both the individual and couples kind. If you're new here, you may be surprised at what I have to say.
http://blogs.salon.com/0002153/
...always more about SirwithLove by going to: http://groups.msn.com/BDSMLairofDarkness/_whatsnew.msnw?
posted by Sir(%)withLove at 17:49
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